Binokular Veteran Member Posts:1665  
| 5/29/2006 8:34 PM |
|
|
Jules, I know you aren't a fan of Parsons (or Emylou Harris), but its pretty plain that not acknowledging his part in the creation of Country Rock is just pointless historical revisionism. Anyway, I never really reckon you can point to one group or individual as the creator of a Genre, music is much more organic than that. I think it's more like you have all these ideas kinda bubbling under for years an then they're just crystalised into something recognisable that epitomises a genre. It's like the way Bo Diddley IS Rock and Roll , but the basic ideas had been been kinda hovering around since probably pre 1930.
I think when it comes to country rock, it was one of those things that was just inevitable. If Gram Parsons or the Eagles didn't "invent" it, someone else would have. Rock and Roll is mainly an evolution of the Blues, but it has already taken some country aspects long before Parsons, which helped it appeal to white audiences. When you consider that Blues and Country music are kinda coming from the same place in a way, country rock seems like a natural progression (or regression even)
|
|
|
|
Rev JulesVeteran Member Posts:1041
| 5/30/2006 9:20 PM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by Binokular
Jules, I know you aren't a fan of Parsons (or Emylou Harris), but its pretty plain that not acknowledging his part in the creation of Country Rock is just pointless historical revisionism. Anyway, I never really reckon you can point to one group or individual as the creator of a Genre, music is much more organic than that. I think it's more like you have all these ideas kinda bubbling under for years an then they're just crystalised into something recognisable that epitomises a genre. It's like the way Bo Diddley IS Rock and Roll , but the basic ideas had been been kinda hovering around since probably pre 1930.
I think when it comes to country rock, it was one of those things that was just inevitable. If Gram Parsons or the Eagles didn't "invent" it, someone else would have. Rock and Roll is mainly an evolution of the Blues, but it has already taken some country aspects long before Parsons, which helped it appeal to white audiences. When you consider that Blues and Country music are kinda coming from the same place in a way, country rock seems like a natural progression (or regression even)
For the record I did not edit the above, I managed to hit the wrong button but the doc's above text is unchanged.
Now, I always enjoy when Herr Docktor enters a debate because it forces my redneck id out of the shotgun shack it abides in and makes it confront the subject head on. Ok, I said previously that I think that country-rock is a bit like British Cinema, an oxymoron. Indeed, most standard texts on country music make no mention of it and the only group to allude to the genre in their stage name, the country rockers, were actually an 1980s rockabilly group (which muddies the waters further). Country Rock's roots, such as they were, only date back to the 1960s when rock guitarists, in search of novelty, tried to incorporate pedal steel guitar into their overall rock sound, without any real artistic or commercial success. The name as such really dates from Chris Darrow who it was that pointed out that The Eagles were the first group to be played on both rock and country stations in the usa and, because of that, the actual name emerged so, to answer you Peejay, in this case avonmore actually did invent milk, its a commercial tag to start with. In fact, the Eagles were the only band to succeed with this sound so really it is their genre as they were the first to actually incorporate not only country sounds but country songwriting structure and country themes into their music, it really does starts with them and, after them, it was taken up by hardline Nashville country acts such as Charlie Daniels and Hank Williams Jr, removing it from the rock sphere altogether.
Today, Toby Keith, Brooks and Dunn, Garth Brooks and Chris Cagle are modern examples of the form.
Now, when we talk about the roots of american musical forms the only thing we can be certain of is our uncertainty. Many black musicians refer to country or country and western music as 'the white mans blues', it was their way of saying that, no, this music did not emerge out of the african american cultural subconcious but actually had a separate evolution. Some commentators make a big deal out of the fact that Hank Williams learned about music from a black street musician down at the railway track where he shined shoes as a kid but Nashville and the Grand Ole Opry were already very well established by then and the Ku Klux Klan had long been supporters of a financiers of rural bluegrass festivals (sorry guys, its true). In fact, the term country music dates from the McCarthy era, before that it was called folk or old time music, as a way of disenfranchising artists such as Woody Guthrie whose communism Joe disapproved of (very much as we all know). Getting confused yet?
In a way, you could say that the true father of a country/rock sound is actually Johnny Cash, himself an inductee of both the country and rock 'n' roll halls of fame. It was he who introduced Bob Dylan to Nashville after having him on his tv show, an event which begins Peter Doggett's book on the movement 'Are You ready For The Country'. Indeed, you can draw a direct line between his 'Folsom Prison Blues' and Steve Earle's 'Devils Right Hand', right down to the lyrics and sentiment. But this does not sit right with fans of Gram Parsons and the Byrds, because that messes with their revisionist view of musical history. I would give more creedence to the view that U2's 'The Wanderer' is a more authentic example of country rock than anything Parsons churned out, more real and more heartfelt, it certainly sounds much better too. In fact press me and I'll happilly say that 'The Joshua Tree' is a country/rock record, after all, it stole Parson's elysium out from under him and there is no way now that he is getting it back.
|
|
|
|
BinokularVeteran Member Posts:1665
| 5/30/2006 10:35 PM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rev Jules
its a commercial tag to start with.
fairy 'nuff - if your definition of coutry rock is simply a that its commercial tag rather than a genuine cross-over genre, then your argument makes total sense, but I think most folks have a slightly different idea of what country rock is. Who's to say what it actually is, then again, considering I spend far more time listening to Ellen Allien than Johnny Cash, I'm probably not the best position to define it.
quote:
Originally posted by Rev Jules
Many black musicians refer to country or country and western music as 'the white mans blues', it was their way of saying that, no, this music did not emerge out of the african american cultural subconcious but actually had a separate evolution.
Perhaps, at this point I should explain a little more clearly what I meant by country and blues "coming from the same place", I didn't mean it so much geographically as I meant emotionally. Theres a similar rawness, blues has a bit more swagger and humour (or at least more overt humour) though I think. But then again, even looking at it geographically, various forms of Blues and various forms of what later came to be known as country developed in similar parts of the US. I think there is often too much of a perceived divide beteen black and white music. (Lets not forget its only a short boat trip from europe to africa.) I mean look at the pedal steel technique of country and the slide guitar technique used in the blues, pretty similar in many ways, don't you agree? Both genres also take influences from gospel, spirituals, religious music. Counry and blues are developed individually yes, but their paths did cross many times. In fact it's just brought to mind another often overlooked but related genre. Country Soul anyone? but thats a whole other discussion...
quote:
Originally posted by Rev Jules I would give more creedence to the view that U2's 'The Wanderer' is a more authentic example of country rock than anything Parsons churned out, more real and more heartfelt, it certainly sounds much better too.
It certainly is a brilliant song, and from my 2nd favourite U2 album too. |
|
|
|
Rev JulesVeteran Member Posts:1041
| 5/31/2006 12:55 AM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by Binokular
quote:
Originally posted by Rev Jules
its a commercial tag to start with.
fairy 'nuff - if your definition of coutry rock is simply a that its commercial tag rather than a genuine cross-over genre, then your argument makes total sense...
Well, you see, thats what the book Hotel California was all about, how a music was created and shaped as a commodity, from the start really, as Elliot Roberts and David Geffen play a central role from the prologue. Sometimes I feel we don't take enough note of the commercial imperative in so much american music and the desire by its leading exponents to succeed financially as well as artistically. I mean, even The Boss wasn't above digging deep to write a top 40 hit single when it was put to him that he really needed it (Dancing In The Dark). Did Gram Parsons fail commercially because he didn't really need the money, didn't care for it, whilst Henley and Frey hit the big time because they did. Does that make Gram's music more worthy or the Eagles less ? Who knows ? Any way you look at it, money played its part, and thats what Country Rock really is in my book, a money motivated synthetic music that evolved in less than a decade at the behest of some music managers and their success hungry clients. It was all diluted and repackaged, and the eagles hit the magic formula, they created a Coca Cola music.
As for country soul, may I recommend to you...
Night Train to Nashville: Music City Rhythm & Blues 1945-1970)
Audio CD (February 24, 2004)
Label: Lost Highway
ASIN: B0001DMWFW
"The most startling revelation contained on this two-CD compilation is how rich, varied, and deep Nashville's R&B scene was during a 25-year period in which the city solidified its reputation as the undisputed capital of country music. Arranged chronologically, Night Train to Nashville also traces the steady progression of African-American music beginning with the end of WWII--from jump blues, lusty R&B, and smooth-groove vocal groups to proto rock & roll, Southern soul, and Top 40 pop that drew blacks and whites together even as the Vietnam War nearly ripped the country apart. "
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001DMWFW/qid=1149033387/sr=8-1/ref=__1/002-1102990-5730452?s=music&v=glance&n=5174 |
|
|
|
Peejay Basic Member Posts:340
| 5/31/2006 9:59 AM |
|
quote:
In fact, the Eagles were the only band to succeed with this sound...
Absolutely, but...
quote:
as they were the first to actually incorporate not only country sounds but country songwriting structure and country themes into their music, it really does starts with them
...here you're contradicting yourself. Don't confuse commercial success with an original formula. They certainly weren't the first group to incorporate country sounds and structure into their music, as I've said in the previous posts. They nicked the formula from the likes of The Flying Burrito Bros, Grateful Dead and more in particular Poco. They took a formula and made it appealing to the masses. Thats no mean feat, and I'll give them that, but they were by no means the first on the block.
quote:
they created a Coca Cola music
Nah mate, thats the Beatles. The Eagles created Light Beer.  |
|
|
|
Rev JulesVeteran Member Posts:1041
| 5/31/2006 3:02 PM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by Peejay
They nicked the formula from the likes of The Flying Burrito Bros, Grateful Dead and more in particular Poco. They took a formula and made it appealing to the masses.
If anyone came up with a formula to start with it was Bob Dylan during his nashville sojourn. not those twats in the Burrito Brothers. Maybe lets place its birth on Dec 27, 1967 with the release of 'John Wesley Harding' and with Pete Drake's Steel Guitar on "I'll Be Your Baby Tonight" and "Down Along The Cove".
The formula then left nashville & found its way to L.A; where The Eagles perfected it before it returned to Nashville where it settled into a comfortable, profitable retirement. How about that as a compromise. |
|
|
|
PeejayBasic Member Posts:340
| 5/31/2006 3:37 PM |
|
quote:
Actually, you are wrong, sorry, if anyone came up with a formula to start with it was Bob Dylan during his nashville sojourn.
Right, at least you're finally admitting it wasn't The Eagles.
quote:
not those twats in the Burrito Brothers, Jesus wept.
What about Bernie Leadon. He was a Burrito and an Eagle, does that make him half-twat?
quote:
Maybe lets place it on Dec 27, 1967 with the release of 'John Wesley Harding'
Why start then? The Byrds released Younger Than Yesterday in Febraury 1967, this features many nods to country music, Time Between in particular.
Poco formed in 1968 and featured future members of the Eagles as well as past members of Buffalo Sringfield, they're seen as a forerunner to The Eagles. Certainly more than John Wesley Harding.
|
|
|
|
Vent My Spleen Advanced Member Posts:500
| 5/31/2006 5:10 PM |
|
|
Jeez! You could argue that any one of
The Eagles
CSNY
Bufalo Springfield
Dylan
The Byrds
The Band
and a few others were the trailblazers. Equally, I think people often cite Gram/Burritos as they were one of the first acts with a country pedigree to slip into that country rock area.
Not exactly sure of chronology but The Byrds were the ones who porbably have as good a claim as any with 'Sweetheart of the Rodeo' circa 1968, if for no other reason than they were already a successful band with a string of hits. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Parsons play on a few of these tracks but was uncredited due to legal wrangles with his record company?
|
|
|
|
PeejayBasic Member Posts:340
| 5/31/2006 5:53 PM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by Vent My Spleen
You could argue that any one of
The Eagles
CSNY
Bufalo Springfield
Dylan
The Byrds
The Band
and a few others were the trailblazers.
Or not even argue at all, its a fact. They all had a part to play in the genre. No one act is responsible. My point is that country-rock was in full flow before The Eagles came along.
Gram Parsons was a fully fledged member of The Byrds during Sweetheart of the Rodeo era. I'm not sure about any legal wranglings though, but I know some of his lead vocals were replaced for the official album release, so you could be right. He may have still been under contract with the International Submarine Band at the time. He quickly left the band though, using an objection to apartheid as an excuse. |
|
|
|
Rev JulesVeteran Member Posts:1041
| 5/31/2006 6:50 PM |
|
|
Ok, let me declare a few things before I progress.
a) I don't like country-rock, I think its a phoney 'genre'.
b) I don't like The Eagles either, nope, don't like their music and don't much like their fans too.
c) I don't think much of Dylan's nashville albums (but that is another debate)
d) Most of all, I don't like the cod orthodoxy that puts Gram Parsons and his mates at the epicentre of what, like I said before, is a phoney movement, manipulated into life by a small group of label heads, success hungry musicians, radio execs and so on over a few years. Yet mythologised with Saint Gram on his cross @ Joshua Tree. Mojo are always at it, its lazy and its untrue. They try the same sort of s**t with Hank Williams from time to time, sorry guys, Hank's sound was lifted wholesale from Woody Guthrie's cousin Jack two years earlier, its his songs alone that guarantee him his place, again another day's debate.
When I say that I think The Eagles are the true creators of country-rock (and I never said 'first'), I mean they are the guys who got it right, commercially and artistically, they put together the whole package, all other attempts being varying degrees of failure, The Eagles nailed it and because it was such a shallow genre, there was only really room for them. Say what you like about sweetheart of the rodeo etc, that material hasn't lasted whereas, horror of horror, people still play 'Take It Easy', 'Lying Eyes', and, worst of all, 'Hotel California' on an ongoing basis. When I think of The Byrds, as I suspect most people do if they think of them at all, I think of their jangly version of 'Mr Tambourine Man' and not anything in a country vein.
|
|
|
|
ctrlaltdeleteBasic Member Posts:268
| 6/1/2006 11:25 AM |
|
|
Rev Jules, you are the Dan Brown of country bulls**t.
I'm with Peejay on this one.
Sorry Jules, but you are always spouting "everything-you-thought-you-knew-about country-is-a-lie" claptrap, and it's painful to listen to.
|
|
|
|
Rev JulesVeteran Member Posts:1041
| 6/1/2006 11:37 AM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by ctrlaltdelete
Rev Jules, you are the Dan Brown of country bulls**t.
I'm with Peejay on this one.
Sorry Jules, but you are always spouting "everything-you-thought-you-knew-about country-is-a-lie" claptrap, and it's painful to listen to.
Oh gimme a break. I'm sick of reading all this nonsense gleaned from the pages of Mojo and Q magazine, but hey, if it makes ya happy. Stick with opinions that confirm your own beliefs, it is so much easier. So what next for the Mojoers? Bonnie Prince Billy, the real George Jones ? Or other crapola like that.
And by the way, you are right on one thing, everything you know about country music is a lie  |
|
|
|
ctrlaltdeleteBasic Member Posts:268
| 6/1/2006 11:55 AM |
|
|
Get back into your time capsule and go masterbate at the Grand Ole Opry, you luddite.
Your pious, revisionist rubbish is boring. And then you consider flagging people on Jack Johnson and other rubbish is somehow commenable? you are a certified loon.
|
|
|
|
PeejayBasic Member Posts:340
| 6/1/2006 12:03 PM |
|
quote:
I'm sick of reading all this nonsense gleaned from the pages of Mojo and Q magazine
Barney Hoskyns, the guy who wrote the book which prompted this thread, was once an editor of Mojo. |
|
|
|
blacksheep New Member Posts:50
| 6/1/2006 5:21 PM |
|
|
To add to this debate I think it's important to point out that Dylan
recorded "blonde on blonde" in Nashville with members of the Band
and nashville studio musicians.
Now "blonde on blonde" is not a country rock album(actually it
attempts to merge many many different styles of which country & rock
are only two)but at this time(1966)Dylan was on an artistic roll
redefining the possibilitys of American songwriting and needed musicians who were not only brilliant players but who knew how to
experiment and improvise with any style of music hence the nashville
players who had the skill,chops and know how.
As Dylan was the King of counterculture at the time whatever he did
all the others followed and the division between country and rock
if not bridged was definitley narrowed.Country acts like willie nelson,waylon jennings and kris kristofferson started to take rock
music seriously and upcoming folk/rock acts like the byrds,buffalo
springfield and Randy Newman realised that they could learn a hell
of a lot from country music.After that it was inevitable someone
would coin the genre Country Rock.
P.S. Hey Jules,Please explain your beef with Hank Williams?
I'd love to read it.
|
|
|
|
Rev JulesVeteran Member Posts:1041
| 6/2/2006 12:10 AM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by blacksheep
To add to this debate I think it's important to point out that Dylan
recorded "blonde on blonde" in Nashville with members of the Band
and nashville studio musicians.
Now "blonde on blonde" is not a country rock album(actually it
attempts to merge many many different styles of which country & rock
are only two)but at this time(1966)Dylan was on an artistic roll
redefining the possibilitys of American songwriting and needed musicians who were not only brilliant players but who knew how to
experiment and improvise with any style of music hence the nashville
players who had the skill,chops and know how.
As Dylan was the King of counterculture at the time whatever he did
all the others followed and the division between country and rock
if not bridged was definitley narrowed.Country acts like willie nelson,waylon jennings and kris kristofferson started to take rock
music seriously and upcoming folk/rock acts like the byrds,buffalo
springfield and Randy Newman realised that they could learn a hell
of a lot from country music.After that it was inevitable someone
would coin the genre Country Rock.
P.S. Hey Jules,Please explain your beef with Hank Williams?
I'd love to read it.
Variously....
Cool, yep, hear what you are saying there, nice to discuss with an adult instead of getting childish abuse from people too wet behind the ears to know when someone has decided to yank their chain because they get personal off the bat. You are right about Dylan and Nashville of course, he went there for the musicians, it was a mecca for top notch session players, still is.
Oh, I forgive Barney for his earlier sins after reading this book and the enjoyment this thread has given me
Back to your question, don't have a beef with Hank Williams, man was a genius, the songs he wrote in his short tragic life redefined not just country music, not just american music but music full stop. Who was ultimately greater ? Him or Elvis ?
What I was prehaps trying to allude to was that, as James Joyce used to say, hank wasn't above stealing wholesale from others (just as Picasso did), thats not a beef, and one of the guys he stole from was Woody Guthrie's cousin Jack who had a huge hit two years before Hank started recording called 'Oklahoma Hills', its outside the scope of this board to talk about him in depth but he is one of the great lost heroes of american music and is worth checking out. If you listen to Hank and listen to Jack, the arrangement, the playing, the whole sound is eerie, but Jack didn't write, preferring to edit and ammend 'Oklahoma Hills' (written by Woody) and alter some of the chords, in effect turning it into a hit.
I wish I was pious, I'm not, I just don't agree in accepting everything at face value because it conforms to what you think or what you are told what to think. Arguing over Gillian Welch on this board in the past has helped me appreciate her more, I'm happy to alter my opinion, just give me an intelligent reason to do so, so far you haven't but I guess if you can't argue your corner, its alot easier just to call people names  |
|
|
|
blacksheepNew Member Posts:50
| 6/2/2006 1:16 AM |
|
|
Rev. Jules wrote
Back to your question, don't have a beef with Hank Williams, man was a genius, the songs he wrote in his short tragic life redefined not just country music, not just american music but music full stop. Who was ultimately greater ? Him or Elvis ?
Well I don't know who was greater but I know who I prefer.
I find it impossible to separate Hanks life from his music.
He is the conundrum does art imitate life or does life imitate art.
With Hank his life was his art and his art was his life.They are one.
If I need to hear music that puts me in touch with the realitys
of the human condition,y'know true soul music,I know I can rely on
Hank Williams.I don't think there is a wasted word or a fake idea in
his whole output.He was a genius.The real deal.
I can't comment on Jack Guthrie,I don't know his music but as
regards stealing songs doesn't every artist steal off each other?
In a different thread on this board I accused the chili peppers of
nicking a song off Tom Petty.On reflection my problem isn't with
them stealing the song it's that they did such a bad job of it.
If your gonna steal it's gotta at least match up to the original
or surpass it.Then it's justified because you are adding to culture
not detracting.
On the subject of the Eagles I'm surprised no-one mentioned they're
hugely influenced by songwriters like Brian Wilson & Jimmy Webb.
All those 4 and 5 part harmonies,major seventh chords and the like.
The only way that the eagles were country was in their choice of
instrumentation.Banjos,pedal steel,some fiddle but the songs are
pop songs first and foremost.Also,and this is only my opinion,I think
Gram Parsons was very jealous of the Eagles because they were getting
a level of success that he wasn't and with some of his ex band members.I mean,how dare they?
|
|
|
|
Rev JulesVeteran Member Posts:1041
| 6/6/2006 11:32 AM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by blacksheep
Well I don't know who was greater but I know who I prefer.
I find it impossible to separate Hanks life from his music.
He is the conundrum does art imitate life or does life imitate art.
With Hank his life was his art and his art was his life.They are one.
If I need to hear music that puts me in touch with the realitys
of the human condition,y'know true soul music,I know I can rely on
Hank Williams.I don't think there is a wasted word or a fake idea in
his whole output.He was a genius.The real deal.
I can't comment on Jack Guthrie,I don't know his music but as
regards stealing songs doesn't every artist steal off each other?
In a different thread on this board I accused the chili peppers of
nicking a song off Tom Petty.On reflection my problem isn't with
them stealing the song it's that they did such a bad job of it.
If your gonna steal it's gotta at least match up to the original
or surpass it.Then it's justified because you are adding to culture
not detracting.
On the subject of the Eagles I'm surprised no-one mentioned they're
hugely influenced by songwriters like Brian Wilson & Jimmy Webb.
All those 4 and 5 part harmonies,major seventh chords and the like.
The only way that the eagles were country was in their choice of
instrumentation.Banjos,pedal steel,some fiddle but the songs are
pop songs first and foremost.Also,and this is only my opinion,I think
Gram Parsons was very jealous of the Eagles because they were getting
a level of success that he wasn't and with some of his ex band members.I mean,how dare they?
Very intersting, yep agree with you on Hank, never didn't, yep all artists steal, agree with that too, yep agree that Gram was jealous of The Eagles, alot of people were. Agree that Brian Wilson was a huge influence on them because he really captured a vision of california that people, particularly those not from California, really fell in love with. One of my fav songs of his is actually the one he claimed was the first tune that he wrote 'Surfer Girl'.
It sure had a alot of relevance last saturday in Sligo
By the way, round our house we mourn Hank's passing as part of our New Years Eve / Day party. Ok, black sheep, cheers, my mind is refreshed from the chat, hang ten, |
|
|
|