If I like Damien Rice's 'O' does it mean I have poor judgement and bad taste in music? I shouldn't think so. If I like his album, it doesn't mean that I get excited by hearing that he is drinking in a certain pub or that I stand motionless at his gigs nodding away and supping on my pint. Just because I like someone's music doesn't pigeonhole me with a certain scene or liking a particular brand of music. Whatever people's opinions on The Frames, Paddy Casey, Damien Rice, Declan O'Rourke etc, someone can still like their music, buy their cd's and attend their gigs without ever overhyping them or worshipping them. I gave Declan O'Rourke a very generous review of his debut album, not because I had a few pints with the chap or that I want to be part of a certain clic or that it's the right thing to do in Ireland now.......I did it because I liked the album and still like it. Does that make me shallow? Or not adventrous with my music taste? I don't think so, considering my music collection is so varied and I attend all types of gigs. But alot of posts on this thread have basically labelled anyone who likes The Frames, Paddy Casey etc as lesser music fans. I'm not saying I'm a huge fan of these acts but just because I like some of their music, I'd like to think that I wasn't being looked down at. John Meagher wrote a decent piece and it was an entertaining read. But if he is questioning the Irish scene, I would question his journalistic skills. He has a weekly slot in a National Newspaper, yet he fails to highlight/promote/big up any local or underground bands. Why is this? Basically because he doesn't attend the gigs. That's a huge problem with the media in this country....they are so disconnected from the upcoming bands that they never realise there is some talent out there. Hotpress didn't recognise the Delorentos until they won the National Student Award, The Ticket never mentioned Humanzi until they got signed to a big label, The Indo never heard of Jove until the Loud & Clear event. If journalists actually went to gigs and left their judgemental red pen at home, they would discover alot of decent acts. Of course, there are many dreadful acts out there but there is in every music scene in the western world - not just Dublin. And yes, there is a lack of competition media-wise. We only really have Hotpress, The Ticket, The Indo Mag, Cluas, Roadhouse Mag, Cpu, Irish Music Central, Musician.ie, The Event Guide and some of the Sunday supplements. So there is a need for a strong music publication. But is there a market for it? Will enough people be interested in buying it weekly/forthnightly/monthly? Will people tune into Phantom (when it finally airs) in their masses or will they be content with Spin106? What I would suggest to anyone who is disheartened about the Irish scene is do something about it.......Write a review (constructive criticism does help some bands improve), buy an underground band's Ep, spread the word to mates, go to the gigs, request songs on the radio, write letters to editors of publications. And give HWCH a chance as there are some really good acts on offer this w/e. *rant over.......exhale*

wow, very well said Gar, fair play.

Hats off to Rev Jules and Gar, good passionate points and further confirmation why cluas is so good. The thing is there is no right answer to all of this, its all opinions. All valid, provided they are made coherently and entertainingly. John Meagher's article was about rock music and, as much as I subscribe to the God-like brilliance of Martin Hayes and Dennis Cahill and other maestros, his argument only applies to those wearing the rock/pop hats Gar's points about national newspapers not recognising local bands - I really, really dont think its their job and here is the reason why what I said before about the lack of other mags/rags than HP falls flat on its arse (took less than three hours for that to hapepn, a new record). Yes, we need a mag to hear about Humanzi, Delorentos, Jove, Polar, Director, Marshal Stars. But is there enough of "us" to support such a magazine? I sadly dont think so. The fact that its left to a national newspaper to question what is going on in Irish underground indie rock is a huge shame. However, I sincerely doubt if a commissioning editor at any rock mag like Hot Press would give the space to such a maverick, unpopular opinion. It wouldnt be welcomed by advertisers, bands, other writers. Thats the great thing about having writers like Meagher etc writing columns in national newspapers and having the freedom to shoot from the hip- you get different opinions. its why you will read someone like Jim Carroll or even Neil Dunphy - the kind of opinions you will get there are not what you would get in a music-only magazine which has to worry about pissing off those who pay the bills. right, i'm off, i'm hungry and i have some gigging to do later on.

This has been the best topic on cluas for a while. Well written opinions and valid points from both sides. Alot of the signed acts in Ireland are the ones who leave me uninterested. As gar correctly points out, irish journalists need to start Attending and writting about our unsigned bands.They might just end up witnessing bands like The Rags, Channel 1, Humanzi and Dry County. On the other hand, i can understand certain amounts of criticism leveled at certain irish bands as they are so over hyped it beggars belief. It may also be worth remembering that Ireland is a tiny country in world proportions and so to expect a host of Irish bands to be at the top end of world music may be asking a little too much.

I think the comment about the lack of non band owned Indie labels is a pretty good one, CH-1 are great but someone needs to get them in a studio eventually with a producer capable of helping them focus and nail down a decent EP. Until then they will remain untapped potential. Not that theres any harm taking their time. My Bloody Valentine didn't bother with the whole rushing off to london to get a record deal thing, the spent ages just mucking about in Germany with like minded individuals. Waterford band "The Heard" are easily as good as band like The Coral. That sounds like damning them with faint praise I know, but these guys haven't had the opportunity to explore their potential yet. As has been said, its a lot to expect in a small country like Ireland to have a mind blowing band popping up every five minutes. Its just if you say, "well X band are good, but not great" you're not seen as "supporting the Irish Music Scene", but balanced criticism that doesn't give bands brownie points simply for being Irish is essential. Theres little middle ground in the Irish music press between the hardened cynics and the unreserved fawning apologists.

these arguments are so retarded. HELLOOOOO, we all know that most of these 'rock' bands are s**t, but you don't actually have to listen to them you know! So many people complain about the 'state of the scene', but continue to prop it up by going to those gigs and buying the records like some mass act of self harm. The fact that people generalise bands or artists by geography is ridiculous. It has little to do with the quality of music, bar a few passing infringing trends. It's to do with genre, not location. Most rock music is boring all over the planet, not just in Ireland. There is PLENTY of good music out there, Irish, 'non-national' whatever. Why the f**k people keep dragging this argument up I'll never know. But what I understand less is complaints about a solvable situation. How can a band or a song piss you off when you don't listen to them? And, we all know that music journalists are all just frustrated musicians themselves just with an added outlet of complaint.

its a weird article, that. you could argue that with bands like humanzi, director, marshall stars, red organ serpent sound, and republic of loose signed this year from ireland that it is an exciting time for irish music. maybe one of them will release something fantastic? maybe not, but jesus, it'd be nice. there are loads for good bands, and with humanzi, channel 1 and mainline looked after and heavily connected with MCD in ireland they'll get the pick of the gigs, and will probably have the best chance to develop. after that, the pick of the best irish bands sit in two categories, 'cool' bands like dry county, delorentos, and betamax format, and more commercial hopes like jove and director. People like John Meagher need to be talking about them. they can call them crap if they want, but by getting people talking about them allows them to be heard and lets people make up their mind. While i may not agree with everything in the piece, (and i feel he's playing a charater somewhat) its great to have the independent and unsigned scene in the public eye.

too many posts to read so i'll back up my point briefly... lazy because as mick says, he has picked the usual suspects - also, the same article has been written by any number of out of touch journalists in the last year or two... ok, so yes, paddy casey is a second rate david gray, mundy lacks any ambition but we've heard it so many times... i disagree with the frames - no matter what you think of him, glen hansard is a showman and for the birds is a superior album... but he's choosing the new mainsteam irish - he's neglecting anything slightly leftfield... ...also lads, you're being far too hard on irish bands - most of them act independently with not much money - if you moved some of them to the uk with a budget and a marketing manager, you'd soon see certain quarters raving... a lot of it is luck well said gar for the post nearer the top of this page

The article was well-written and entertaining, granted, but I thought it was lacking in any depth of content. John Meagher only skimmed the surface, mentioning only the groups and artists we already know about, and not exploring anything in any depth. I think he just sounds tired, to be honest. Despite what Una said, a music journalist should be the one to root out the new and original and bring them into the public eye, not wait around for artists to come to him. At least that's what I've always thought was the point of being a music journalist, but maybe I'm wrong. So he finds some of the more popular artists not to his taste; as long as some people do, that's all that matters. As long as there are groups playing and entertaining and providing us with music at least some of us enjoy, the music scene will never be dead. And there are hundreds of less well known bands playing around Ireland, if you try to find them among the throngs of guitar-wielding teenage cover bands, especially in the city. Yes, irish music is definitely suffering from the lack of media competition. But the main problem as I see it in Irish music is it's being based in Dublin. Yes, I know I've brought it up before, but speaking from small-town Mayo, I can see no opportunities for groups/artists outside the city, so it's either move there or not bother. I know of at least one very talented original band from my town that have been playing around Mayo and surrounding area for quite a few years, in which time they also recorded a demo, but are still only known to their friends, and friends friends. The answer: they're moving to Dublin. Plus most of the "usual suspects", the bands mentioned I'm not even all that familiar with, as they never play over here, and their CDs are not available in any record store I know.

Wheather you agree with this article or not, it's definately stirred a lot of interesting debate. I think there is a frustration with the lack of any big international breakthroughs in recent years, people are still expecting the next U2 to come along. In every decade since the 60s except for this one Ireland has had acts that made a big impact internationally. The 60s had Them, Van Morrison and Taste. The 70s had Thin Lizzy, Rory Gallagher, Stiff Little Fingers, The Undertones, The Boomtown Rats. The 80s had U2, Sinead O'Connor, The Pogues, My Bloody Valentine. The 90s had The Cranberries, Therapy?, Ash. And the 2000s Damien Rice is about the only one who has made more than a ripple.

Hot Press has competition - its called Connected Magazine - they've got their finger on the trigger. Great rag and its online too. Mister Meagher has got a point - problem you have is most venues wont take cutting edge bands (....you'll have to guarantee 50 people...), no radio show will play it (....its not really a radio song...), so to get your name about (and the acts that John mentioned all have) bands are forced to play the game. I'm pretty sure that none of them want to - there is a reality which he is choosing to ignore and that is most bands are pushed down the road of doling out a 'lowest common denominator' tune to get a bit of attention. They're not shying away from writing good songs, they are just writing the songs that will be reviewed, played, listened to at BBQ's so that they can release the songs that they want later. Its easy to give the musicians a kicking - what about the DJ's, Journo's and Venue owners? They belong in the dock answering the charge of dumbing down music too.

I'm with Una on this one. I couldn't care less what the nationality of the band is and what sort of state the irish scene is. Who cares? If a band are good they are good. But for some reason, Dublin seems to be obsessed with the whiney self obsessed singer songwriters. No-cares that your cat left you for a mouse. I thought HWCH was a ridiculous idea. An all Irish festival for Irish bands. Could we not have a good festival with good bands?

Connected Magazine is certainly no 'competition' for Hotpress.

he brings up some good points, some better points are made by some of the usual fountains of sanity here in cluas of course. theres some great fertilizer in what one or two comments consist of though! its not like these bands are forcing themselves on anyone is it now? i mean, ive never been kidnapped and taken to a gig, (i wish i was though, it'd be some craic. oh girls aloud, when will you hold me falsely imprisoned!) some old dude (my vocabulary is...good) that produced pop hits in the 60's and 70's made a great point a while ago on rte1 radio (fountain of great music-if you know when to listen and who to listen to) he basically said that about 15 years ago, if he got a tape/cd of a band, it was usually because someone else heard the act and thought the act was worth investing in. These days awful, self absorbed singer songwriters/bands who've read every biography of every singer songwriter/band but learned absolutly nothing, can go in and make a reasonable demo for a few moths rent in a dalkey duplex. (so they live it rough for a year in, lets say, drumcondra? to save the money to record?! heh) basically, quantity up, quality down/stays the same if you can root it out. But to my main point, which kind of cancels out my off the cuff ranting...its the friggin indo for chrissakes! who takes that piece of used food seriously?! to attempt some sort of literary illustration (im a self confessed dim wit and i accept this graciously with whiskey, no water) the indo is "nothing but a chav in rugger bugger's clothing", as ross o'carroll kelly might put it!(did you hear that? ! Independant news and Media shares just plummeted!) i should probably stop now before i mention how i feel about hotpress. angry and insulted. there, i've said it.(and STILL no one gives a feck, ) and stoat are cool. he's entitled to his opinion but stoat have great tunes and a brilliant attitude to music for which they will be remembered for when the future does eventually get them!

While the fact that people can record a decent demo in a bedroom never mind a studio means that there is an awful lot of s**te being put out there you can't forget that the upside of it is that those decent musicians/bands are able to (and this sounds w**ky but it's true) ahem, "pursue their musical vision" without interference from others. A lot of guys who produce bands starting out just have a standard bag of tricks that they apply to recording depending on what they sound like ("these guys sound a bit like The Pixies so the knobs on the desk go this way") and it means that everything winds up being a bit homogenised and standardised, that's not to say that bands can't benifit from a decent producer (if they can find one) but really, how hard is it to get a handle on Cubase? Often it's hard to describe waht you want something to sound like and much easier just to do it yourself. Then there's the A&R folk who often (often??? an understatement perhaps) are more concerned with getting a nice commercial sheen on the music at the expence of having the music be good.

well, there's enough decent bands in dublin for someone to make a breakthrough...

there's tons of decent acts in ireland. If you made a compilation of the best 20 tracks from irish bands it would stand up against any album in the charts...