Lucera Basic Member Posts:180  
| 8/19/2004 5:16 PM |
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YOUR A HATE MONGER! HAHA.
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| 8/24/2004 9:50 AM |
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I actually thought the B-sides album was a great idea. I know a lot of people who are only recent converts to Damien and cannot get a hold of the original singles but still want the songs on CD. Most of the songs on the B-sides album are live favourites which feature in his setlist consistently so why not make them available on CD. The price of €9.99 seems very reasonable for what it is considering the average for a new CD in HMV can range anywhere from €16.99 to €25.99.
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Rev Jules Veteran Member Posts:1041
| 8/24/2004 10:40 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Laela
I actually thought the B-sides album was a great idea.
This is what Tony Clayton-Lea of the Irish Times said about the very same record, "recycled songs housed in a recycled paper CD sleeve". |
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BinokularVeteran Member Posts:1665
| 8/24/2004 10:45 AM |
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€9.99 is a good price, however it should be noted that that was a discounted price. It is retailing on CD WOW as a full price album. It is also number one in the Irish Album charts and therefore must be expensive enough to be regarded for consideration in the charts.
I can't agree with the live favourites argument either, having a look at the track list there are only four (closer to 3 and a half) songs which did not appear on "O" in one form or another. The remaining tracks consist of two demos, an instrumental and a radio remix.
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john@soundweb.ieBasic Member Posts:201
| 8/24/2004 3:54 PM |
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"two demos, an instrumental and a radio remix". yep, in a coloured envelope. cha-ching.
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Rev JulesVeteran Member Posts:1041
| 8/24/2004 4:17 PM |
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I guess, sifting through reponses from y'all that the overall view is that
a) As a business man, Damien Rice is: 
b) As a musician, Damien Rice is:  |
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jmc105Basic Member Posts:188
| 9/2/2004 11:22 AM |
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the b-sides collection was put together for the united states (where damien's singles have not been released) and only released in ireland due to demand from fans. i don't see how that is ripping anyone off.
it also makes me laugh to see so many people label damien rice as a hypocrite and worse based on what they've read in a magazine or 'heard from a friend' - would they be so quick to trust such sources if it was someone they actually knew being insulted? so he said he likes being anonymous is spain. so he says he doesn't particularly like the music industry, despite his success. to me that just shows that damien may be too honest for his own good.
personally i see all this as another example of irish people resenting those who achieve success. who does he think he is, etc etc. hence the irish times (i think) reviewer who wrote that he was "disgusted" when damien rice joined the frames onstage at marlay park, the comments below that he is 'contrived' and only interested in taking advantage of 'scarily enthusiastic' fans. anyone who visits messageboards of other irish bands will know just how much hatred there is out there for damien rice. jealousy is such a negative emotion.
getting back to the b-sides debate, the fact that it has reached no. 1 in the charts (with o currently at no. 5), surely answers the question pretty conclusively.
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Rev JulesVeteran Member Posts:1041
| 9/2/2004 12:41 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jmc105
the b-sides collection was put together for the united states (where damien's singles have not been released) and only released in ireland due to demand from fans. i don't see how that is ripping anyone off.
it also makes me laugh to see so many people label damien rice as a hypocrite and worse based on what they've read in a magazine or 'heard from a friend' - would they be so quick to trust such sources if it was someone they actually knew being insulted? so he said he likes being anonymous is spain. so he says he doesn't particularly like the music industry, despite his success. to me that just shows that damien may be too honest for his own good.
personally i see all this as another example of irish people resenting those who achieve success. who does he think he is, etc etc. hence the irish times (i think) reviewer who wrote that he was "disgusted" when damien rice joined the frames onstage at marlay park, the comments below that he is 'contrived' and only interested in taking advantage of 'scarily enthusiastic' fans. anyone who visits messageboards of other irish bands will know just how much hatred there is out there for damien rice. jealousy is such a negative emotion.
getting back to the b-sides debate, the fact that it has reached no. 1 in the charts (with o currently at no. 5), surely answers the question pretty conclusively.
Please, can we get over this 'The Ireland are a nation of begrudgers' every time somebody has something less than adulatory to say about a person in the public eye. It is such a lazy line of argument and takes the position that you can't have any opinion other than, 'They're greeeaaatt !'. Ireland has changed beyond recognition in the last few decades and artists no longer need to either emigrate or live in penuary in order to pursue their work, as was the case with James Joyce, so that line of attack is essentially redundant.
There is no question that there are a great many fans of Damien Rice out there and I wish them well but equally there are many music lovers who dislike both his public persona and his music. His high chart position is certainly an indication of his popularity amoung a section of the listening public but it does not represent all those who listen to and/or buy music. This is the case with every established musician and Cluas exists to discuss those differing tastes so, no, the fact that he has reached number one does not prove anything conclusively other than he has reached a certain level of IRMA monitored sales.
You are also incorrect in portraying Cluas as a 'message board for (another) irish band(s)'. It is nothing of the sort, being a broadbased online music site which allows for the expression of wildly divergent opinions on music, often leading to heated discussions among readers, as you yourself have proved with your posting.
The critic that you mention from The Irish Times had made it clear in their numerous articles for that newspaper that they have grown to dislike the entire genre of the Irish, white, male, guitar playing singer/songwriter, of which Rice is a particularly successful example, and not per se him as an individual. I seem to remember that the Irish Times gave him a cover of 'The Ticket' recently and an indepth interview complete with photographs. Hardly the response of a publication, which you appear to suggest, resents him for his success. |
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jmc105Basic Member Posts:188
| 9/2/2004 2:12 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Rev Jules
Please, can we get over this 'The Ireland are a nation of begrudgers' ...that line of attack is essentially redundant...
...the fact that he has reached number one does not prove anything conclusively other than he has reached a certain level of IRMA monitored sales...
You are also incorrect in portraying Cluas as a 'message board for (another) irish band(s)'...
1. i disagree that the characteristic begrudgery of the irish people has somehow melted away in recent years. in my opinin it is far from a lazy argument, and just because it does not apply to you does not mean it is redundant.
2. the fact that b-sides has reached no.1 of course only proves that he has reached x amount of sales. but it is reasonable to extrapolate from the chart position of the album, and the related number of sales, that a signifigant number of people found the cd to be worth buying - surely a relevant point in the 'ripoff' debate? high inflation has made the irish people accutely aware of being ripped-off. one would presume that a rip-off cd would stay on the shelves.
3. i never suggested that cluas.com represents any particular band/bands. i just pointed out that on other messageboards, which are affiliated with particular bands, it's not unusual to see comments denouncing damien rice as the talentless, bastard, love-child of satan and rupert murdoch, or words to that effect. it's interesting that the tide of vitriol has risen in tandem with damien's success, but of course that only MIGHT suggest a certain level of begrudgery...
as for the irish times, i haven't confused journalist with publication. i simply quoted one example of the over-the-top insults that are to be found more and more frequently these days. i believe in the freedom of the press, but that's not to say that every journalist is always right, or even good.
i don't know if you are directly involved with cluas.com, but if so congratulations on an excellent site, long may it last. |
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Rev JulesVeteran Member Posts:1041
| 9/2/2004 2:43 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jmc105
i don't know if you are directly involved with cluas.com, but if so congratulations on an excellent site, long may it last.
Thanks for your fiery, well argued contribution. It is postings like yours which make Cluas what it is. I am one of the four moderators of the site but I can take no personal credit for its excellence. That is shared equally by the webmaster, writers, moderators, members and readers of Cluas.com
Keep on posting and bear in mind that Cluas is always looking for new writers so, if you have something you want to write about, put it down and email it in to Eoghan.
Yours in music
Jules  |
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BinokularVeteran Member Posts:1665
| 9/2/2004 3:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jmc105
i disagree that the characteristic begrudgery of the irish people has somehow melted away in recent years. in my opinin it is far from a lazy argument, and just because it does not apply to you does not mean it is redundant.
No, its not a redundant argument, begrudgery has been a trait of the Irish since the days when our ancestors forgot that we really just a bunch of Vikings, Normans and people from Switzerland (celts) who had just settled on a nice little island facing the atlantic and starting calling ourselves Irish. Bizarrely however we also have a tendency as Jules says to get behind anyone who has a bit of success, I mean what other country would be chuffed about being good losers at sports?
Thanks to our confused history of simultaneous begrudgery and wholesale adoration it makes it very hard for genuine criticisms to to be heard. Such criticism should not be dismissed out of a misguided sense of national pride. I believe that good balanced criticism (and acclaim when due!) is actually beneficial for any music scene. Personally I feel that a lot of the criticism of Damien Rice here is well founded and balanced. You of course are entitled to disagree with such criticism and I respect that.
I do have to take exception to the idea that most peoples opinion of Damien Rice is based on what they read in magazines. That may be true to a certain extent in the broader context, but on Cluas most of our readers certainly have listened to his music first hand, either live or on record. In fact he features quite highly in the various Cluas annual readers polls.
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jmc105Basic Member Posts:188
| 9/2/2004 7:02 PM |
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of course, criticism is vital, and while i personally rate damien rice very highly as a musician and performer, i have no problem with people expressing different views. to be fair though, most of the 'criticism' of rice (which is often far closer to insult than criticism) is based on him as a person, and unless someone knows him well or has at least met him a few times it's pretty unfair to assassinate his character based on 2nd or 3rd hand reports of what he may or may not have said or done...
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BinokularVeteran Member Posts:1665
| 9/3/2004 9:52 AM |
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Yes, a lot of people have said nasty things about Damien Rice, just like they do about any figure. However that is irrelevant. This thread is about whether the new B-Sides album is a quality release or just a bit of an opportunistic below-par rip off, which I think is a fair discussion about the work of any artist. I mean its not like I accused Damien Rice of being the antichrist or something, I just said that this release was a bit cheeky. Its just a record, OK? Its not like hes pillaging and burning villages on yo ass in an Atilla the Hun stylee (though that would be sooo cooool). Other than lightening their wallet its not like hes doing anyone any permanent harm with this record (though I sometimes wonder )
As a release I reckon its pretty poor, I mean "O" has been out for two years and in that time he doesn't really have much non-album material knocking around? It does seem to suggest that he isn't very prolific as a songwriter, which isn't neccesarily a bad thing, but it does mean you shouldn't spread things too thin across too many records. I don't subscribe to the live favourites thing either, theres nothing here that hasn't been made available in some form or another before. Its not like say Joy Division who had an unrecorded gem like "love will tear us apart" knocking round in their live set while fans were dying for it to be released as a single. Oh yeah, back in those days you sometimes had singles that didn't even appear on albums!
You will no doubt point out that he is saving the new material for his forthcoming album, in which case I would advise fans to give B-Sides a miss and just wait for the new album. Who knows, it might amaze us all? I always try to keep an open mind about things, but for the moment I remain unconvinced.
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jmc105Basic Member Posts:188
| 9/3/2004 10:37 AM |
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i agree it's a fair discussion, especially when reviewers of the cd raise the same question. i just feel that if you're going to ask that question, you have to put it in the right context. b-sides was made for the us market, where damien rice has released no singles. i happened to be in the states when it came out and it was well received in terms of reviews, because for them it had a lot of new material. then, due to demand from irish fans who didn't want to pay imported-cd prices, it was released here too. so in that context i think it's unfair to say that b-sides represents a calculated effort to rip off irish fans.
as for people criticising damien rice's music - well, why would i have a problem with that? what annoys me is people ripping someone's character to pieces with little or no real grounds to do so.
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BinokularVeteran Member Posts:1665
| 9/3/2004 11:55 AM |
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OK sure, it was intended for the US market, but here it is now landed on our doorstep and I have to take it that context and so does our esteemed reviewer. It would be like Ford selling all its cars here in left hand drive and defending that by saying "they were originally intended for the US market". Even in the US context I still feel it represents poor value offering little that listners of "O" haven't heard already. The fact that Irish fans demanded B-Sides to be released here suggests that they are completists, but if they are completists, they already have the singles right? It doesn't even do a good job of collecting the B-sides and rarities, they're not all here.
For your own sake, drop the character thing too, its getting old, fast. Leave it out, please. This discussion has nothing to do with his personal life. I understand you are fed up of what you see as constant character assasination, real or perceived, and I sympathise with that, but adopting what appears to be a siege mentality does you and the larger Damien Rice fan community no favours. Its not a case of Rice fans against the world. Not every dissenting voice has an axe to grind.
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GarVeteran Member Posts:1676
| 9/3/2004 5:46 PM |
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Is Rice further milking things by targeting a younger audience? Or is he trying to give younger fans a chance to see him live?
Damien Rice has announced details of an under-18s show at Whelan's, Dublin on the afternoon of Saturday September 18.
In reverse of normal procedure, adults will not be allowed in unless accompanied by a guaranteed real teenager.Tickets go on sale from the WAV Box Office in The Village at noon on Saturday September 4 priced €20. You can also phone LO-CALL 1890 2000 78.
It's a good week all round for Damo with his O and B-Sides albums at number 4 and 5 respectively in the Irish chart.
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jmc105Basic Member Posts:188
| 9/3/2004 6:47 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Binokular
...It would be like Ford selling all its cars here in left hand drive and defending that by saying "they were originally intended for the US market".
...For your own sake, drop the character thing too, its getting old, fast. Leave it out, please. This discussion has nothing to do with his personal life.
1. no, it'd be like irish drivers asking ford to sell left-hand drive cars here, ford agreeing, then being accused of ripping off the very same drivers who asked for (and are now buying) the cars in the first place.
2. believe me, i would love to read a discussion of damien rice's music that really did have nothing to do with his personal life. i don't have a problem with it because i like his music (which i do), or because i like him as a person (i don't know him), i have a problem with it because it's wrong, unfair and pervasive. (when irish times journalists feel justified in expressing "disgust" at seeing damien rice appear onstage it's a good indication that things are getting a little out of hand...) incidentally, i'm not writing on here to do myself or anyone else any favours, and when i need advice on what views i should voice, or how i should voice them, i'll ask.
and gar, are you taking the piss? please say you're taking the piss... |
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GarVeteran Member Posts:1676
| 9/4/2004 12:45 AM |
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Taking the piss about what? I pasted that news from hotpress.com
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jmc105Basic Member Posts:188
| 9/4/2004 9:51 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Gar
Is Rice further milking things by targeting a younger audience?...
never mind... |
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vandalaBasic Member Posts:267
| 9/7/2004 11:18 AM |
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Personally, I think he's just crap. A medicore album at best, and like all things fey and pseudo-emotional (Jim Diamond, anyone?) it caught the imagination of the middle-class coffee-table kids who buy one album a year. Worry not, it shall pass...
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