to put them all in a crowd in some kind of disparaging way not just something to talk about? They all produce good music, completely irrelevant about them being a crowd?!

im afraid i think this is one of those you either love it or hate it things, personally i find the place and alot of the music in that scene(SCENE in this case referring to a group of like minded people from similar backgrounds/areas, having similar interests etc) a bit too forced and aimless, (kind of like dail eireann) but i'm the kind of idiot who listens to pantera and hear the same rage that i read in patrick kavanaghs poetry so my opinion is probably best laughed at, then forgotten. but its very true what jaker says, the music should be the only thing that matters

Actually Kitt is a D4 head, Mundy is from Birr, Glen from Ballymun, Casey from Crumlin and all over and no idea where the O’Rourke fella is from but he's a bit of an accent. I don't think it reasonable to begrudge a bunch of musicians a late pint in the venue they all play. Though your right, there does seem to be a clique, the Clique of the Bland, not too dissimilar from the Clique of the Rough staring The Mighty Steff/Hub or the Clique of the Pop staring Zoo/Lillies. PS. My first post, I feel all fuzzy!

Are you (Bonzo) maybe in a band that can't get a gig in Whelans?

Basically, everyone says, 'they're such an insestuous click', so what. If you don't like their music, so what aswell, I just wouldn't look at the 'crowd' scene to be a reason to bring them down, it just seems like a pointless argument. It is not put in a 'oh look they are in a kind of gang/crowd, isn't it great, which would be equally strange so it is disparaging. You can walk up to Whelans now and if you're willing to pay you can get a booking. 'Yes men around Whelans', probably is but to say that acts like The Frames etc look down on other acts is completely unfound and impossible to prove and if they do, that is their problem. It is very bitchy if you ask me, and if what you are saying is true, aren't we just as bad for going on like a gang looking down on another gang and giving out about them? Its not as if we are untouchable because we don't put something like music out there for public criticism.

Well said, there should be a Bitchy Clique though, who would it be?

I know most of them (they'd know me a the yank with the big ass!), really they just sit around singing jeff buckley, the pixies, dylan/young and ani di franco all night, they don't really bitch. Perhaps I should rephrrase the question, what clique are you in?

I was the person who brought up the whole 'Welan's lock-in' crowd to this board. Which I now apologise for. But before I sign off and leave the debate, I just want to add my opinion to it. It was said that people like The Frames look down on other acts trying to get gigs in Whelan's. That is total nonsense. Glen Hansard has always helped other Irish (Mark Geary, Gemma Hayes, Mark Dignam etc) and foreign (Josh Ritter) artists to find their feet in the Irish music scene. And not one of them would say a bad word about The Frames or fellow Irish artists as they do all help eachother. I've interviewed such artists as Roesy, Brendan O'Shea and Mark Geary and they've all had nothing but praise for other Irish artists. If they are part of a crowd, so what really. But dismissing an artist just because you mightened, for example, like The Frames or Mundy and the artist you are hearing about happens to know them or has played with them, is total ignorance. No matter what background an artist comes from and who they know to have gotten up on the stage, the listener should at least give them a fair chance. That's why I posted the original message. I like alot of the artists currently on the Irish scene, some have had better albums or performances but they are primarily the main Irish scene. Yes Jules, there are others who branch out and fair play to them. But do not dismiss the one's who stay here and try and try again to better themselves to a larger audience. Notable recent exports are the 747s, Elaine K, Nero, Stand. Can we drop this thread now?

I agree with what you say about giving every artist a chance. Dropping the thread is fine by me but I posed a question to which I don't know the answer. Basically, has the clique that the Frames, Mundy are in affected their music? I think the answer is yes. I think they are insular and I think that it has made their latest work sub standard to what they could produce. As regards the Whelan's lock in crowd I'd rather be on the outside looking in.

I wouldn't nessacarily peg their new albums (Burn The Maps, Raining Down Arrows) as being failures due to the artists being part of a 'clique'. Yes I'm sure that their are many people who overly praise the lads for every song they produce. But with the two albums mentioned I think there is more going on. I think that both acts are trying to mature in their music, writing and publicity. Rather than playing the same type of shows, looking to take a step away from the 'clique' so they can establish themselves on in their own right (Frames headlining Marley Park) or beside other recognised artists (Mundy supporting Bob Dylan). Not everyone who plays in Whelan's is of the same mediocre volume. Isn't Janis Ian playing there soon? And that was the point I was trying to make with Declan O'Rourke. The fact that he is different. And very talented. But decide for yourself where you stand as long as you give the artist a fair chance.

No mention of Damien Dempsey, he's part of the Whelans gang yet manges to have an album better than the last!

What the f**k are people so f**king obsessed about The Frames, Whelans, Munday and all that shower for????? Their sometimes good, sometimes bad - who gives a flying f**k - there's so much more music out there, so many other types of music, so many other venues, smaller and sometimes better. I'm sick to death of all the bemoaning bastards on this board - do I sound pissed off, well yeah because this is no longer a message board with discussions, it's about people wanting to moan moan moan - right I'm off out of here....

I'll gladly drop this thread as it's pissing me off aswell, even though its probably my fault. Someone start a new exciting/interesting thread

Jesus, lads and lasses, calm down. Whelans is a PUB! A BAR! A bloody VENUE with a STAGE and a PA! It really amuses me that so many people have got so hung up on the fact that a load of musicians who hang out there until dawn are moderately successful. They are NOT successful/known/infamous because of Whelans - I dont know anyone who would buy a record because someone hangs out in a certain pub or scene. They are successful because a lot of people have heard their music and like what they have to say. Hanging out is what musicians do when they are off-duty. Bob Dylan in various cafes/bars in New York; Bruce Springsteen and his mates in New Jersey clubs; Christy Moore/Planxty in Prosperous; whatever. This is normal behaviour. Musicians gravitate towards other musicians just as bulldozer drivers gravitate towards bulldozer drivers and drug dealers hang out together on Thomas Street. The only people who are probably very happy to see the Whelans thread continue and agitate so many people are the owners of the bar themselves. At the end of the night, it's all cash to them. Maybe the best idea would be to give the cops in Kevin St a call and ask them to raid the place after the next Paddy Casey/Damien Dempsey/Mundy/Frames/Declan O'Rourke/Walls gig??? Go on, the number is 01 6669400