That's an interesting point of view. If I agree with this statement it means that I agree that Damien Rice is doing nothing new and I don't really believe that this is the case. I know he's not exactly spearheading a new genre but he does what he does in his own style. What are "the anger and avant garde" bands that this journalist refers to? Does he specify what he would see as being angry and avant garde?

Damien Rice thread! In the mood for a flame war Jules? Even taking Damien Rice out of the equation, I have noticed that the tastes of most people in my age group and below tend to be a bit more conservative than my own, but thats not saying much. I can understand young people wanting to give "angry" music a miss, anger and angst in music isn't really a virtue is it? I loved the Smashing Pumpkins as a teenager but the anger in those songs in itself wasn't what made them great (or Nirvana for that matter). If todays youth are less angry that can only be a good thing right? I doubt it though, looking round Cork city where hundreds of pseudo-goth-emo-whatever kids seem to be forming shouty metal type bands, they're as angry as ever. Damien rice really is not doing anything new, there is no territory here that hasn't been mined by greater talents before him. Yet at the same time it seems unfair to single him out when the Irish music scene in general is lacking much in terms of the genuinely avant-garde? Many seem to be playing it a bit too safe in order to maintain credibility. The one thing I will say for definite, is that the "young fogey" does exist (Whether they listen to Damien Rice or not). I know some people who could match that description; Inoffensive record collections, not really going out and just partying like young people should and worrying about their pensions before the age of 25, but those kind of people have probably always existed?

maybe the young fogey is not new but the people that identify them as such through their characteristics (the inoffensive EVERYTHING, including clothes, and that accent thats not exactly anything, anyone heard this? or have i lost it beyond all hope.)are a new type of irish character. ...(bit of a stretch really) the modern charlie churches/street angel house devil?, the smug soft bellied middle classes? v neck sweaters worn with the same frequency as fashionable causes....(rant!)or something like that...after all, people adapt, they dont go away! still a great country to be in despite them though. plus they make great slagging fodder on a session.

I don't know, when I saw Damien in Seattle he was leaning pretty close to the angsty side of things. Very intense and abrasive. I loved it.

I agree with QsySue , I saw damien Rice in galsto and he was in a kick ass mood , nothing safe about him ! anything that supports real music and not the crap in the charts is great , whether its so called "safe" music or not !

Whats "real" music Karlvin? I do get a little tired of people attributing greatness to music because of what its not (e.g. chart music) rather than what it is. With Damien Rice selling copies of "O" and B-Sides by the truckload, how can it not be classed as chart music? Thats not saying that Damien Rice is rubbish, what I'm saying is: why the hostility towards "chart" music? This to me is the real reason that Damien Rice is the "safe" choice. Its not that he isn't angry (he is), its that much Like REM in the 90s he has become the default choice for those that would like to think that they are listening to something "alternative" and "credible", whatever that is. Buy "O" and hey presto, instant respectability is added your CD collenction. If you like him, cool, I'm not saying that everyone who buys the CD buys it with that motive, but lets not pretend listening to Damien Rice is somehow superior to listening to Natasha Bedingfield (whose recent single was quite good actually). (For QsySue: Natasha Bedingfield is a UK pop star who was number one in the Irish Singles charts recently, substitute Beyonce for Nathasha and that last paragraph will probably make more sence)

You're kidding right? "These words" was terrible :)

Nope, dead serious. I thought "These words" was pretty good, I'm not just saying that, I actually bought the single, laugh if you like. It's a simple catchy pop single, but whats wrong with that? Lyrics were probably as good as anything Damien Rice has written too. The exact same kind of wear your heart on your sleeve vibe, the only difference is that this doesn't pretend to be anything more than it is.

You need to read an interview then, she's certainly saying that she's more than she is in them if I remember correctly. You like it, that's cool. I just thought it was really terrible pop.

Ah, the Micheal Jackson effect taking hold on her early then? One minute hes just writing great pop (admittedly while having to put up with his old man kicking the crap out of him), the next he's believing he's the Messiah or something... I haven't read any interviews, but the track itself comes across as pretty unpretentious, just straight up pop with a hip hop beat underneath.

re THESE WORDS. lyrics are clever whoever wrote them. gives the listener credit.

of course they can, its just if they start out trading on the "I'm not trying to be popular" card, then usually they dont know how to adapt when people just like the music regardless of what the artist wants.

JMC you kinda missed my point. You just used the term "chart music" like its a negative thing. Why should you have a problem with Damien Rice being described as chart music? Its in the charts isn't it. I feel that the definition of chart music should stop there, its in the charts with no negative or positive connotations. I believe pop music is a great thing, creating music that is populist (intended for the masses) is a noble thing. Don't confuse populism with rampant commercialism, which of course is ever present in much of the music industry. You ask about being popular and credible, but what is credibility only acceptance by group of individuals? If Damien Rice is credible, doesn't that make it "safe" to a certain extent, that your friends are less likely to laugh at you than say if you bought Abba Gold? (which in todays weird world is probably no longer cheesy but the height of cool, I dunno, I can't keep up) Milky, I'm not sure how to answer your question about what I meant, I think the statement was pretty straightforward. Take it pretty much as read, I'll get back to you when I can find "these words" to explain it a bit more

For the record, I think the Beddingfield tune is a catchy little blighter. As for Damien Rice, there is always a market for music that is slightly left of centre yet thoroughly unadventurous - David Gray, Moby etc etc. He has managed to retain a certain underground cachet and shift a lot of records, so fair play to him - though I do find the appeal of his music baffling.

OK Karlvin, but you haven't been reading my posts either! What I'm trying to get at is that I just hate people using the term chart music or "charty" as negative connotation in itself (which you appear to do in your last post). As I said before, Whats wrong with creating music that you want to be popular? Theres a blurry line between rampant commercialism and creating music with your audience in mind, its hard at times to tell the difference. Grandmaster Flash is the perfect embodiment of that ideology. Like Kool Herc His records and DJing were aimed straight at his audience, which in his case was the dancefloor rather than the the pop charts. All he wanted to do is make people dance, which is simultaneosly selfish by being a major ego booster and generous in spirit by giving people a good time. If your intended audience happens to be the record buying public, well I think thats just as legitimate. Making music to please yourself is a natural human thing. Kids do it all the time, making up little tunes, but "indie" artists and singer-songwriter types sometimes take things a bit too far. You get this "I made this music for me and I don't care if anyone else likes it" kind of vibe sometimes or Damon Albarn saying "I don't want to sell records". Well he shouldn't have signed that record contract then! It comes across as a bit of a conceit. This kind of idea of "semi-popular" music (see Mark Godfreys Cluas article "Rock Criticism, a dying art"), runing for the artistic and moral high ground. So called "indie" and "alternative" music has never been so heavily marketed, you only have to look at the banner ads on sites like Popmatters and Pitchforkmedia to see what I mean, and then theres the whole NME thing. Just because a record company is targeting a niche market doesn't mean that the marketing involved doesn't have the potential to be equally cynical. If you want to sell a truck load of CDs it isn't "easy" to write a tune that you can guarantee will be commercially successful. That is the biggest myth in popular music. If you were capable of doing that, it would make you some kind of genius, with a Godlike understanding of hooks, rythm and melody. Even the Neptunes won't be able to keep their success going forever and Cathy Dennis (who wrote Kylies "can't get you out of my head") has had her share of also rans. No, if you want to sell a load of CDs what you need is marketing and airplay, and lots of it. Even then success is not guaranteed. Check the bargain bin of your local record store for proof of that. Oh, just a minor point, but I can't let a generalisation like "en-vogue, dancy, poptarts rubbish" go either! I never liked en-vogue, but the phrase seems to indicate a whole anti R&B, Dance music and pop thing going on. why the apparent hostility to these genres? maybe I'm taking you too literally as your other comments seem to indicate that you don't actually dismiss entire genres. Milky, to finally get around to answering your question both Natasha Bedingfields "These Words" and many of Damien Rice songs are simple heart on sleeve tunes about love, but Damien Rices delivery on record (to my ears anyway, and remember I'm talking about on record, not live performance), seems to try to take the artistic high ground that theres a kind of deeper meaining to these songs, which I don't think is there. Kinda playing the tortured soul card a bit too much. I know I'll put the noses of a lot of fans out of joint just for saying that, but that is my honest impression from listening to his music, so hey, guys, don't go all fire and brimstone on my ass for being honest. I'm not sure if anything I've written above makes sense, I'm sleep deprived and majorly overdosed on caffiene and sugar after 4 espressos and a bottle of coke so far today.