Damien Rice Review - CLUAS Irish Indie Music

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Last Post 9/1/2004 2:17 PM by Jaker

Damien Rice Review

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Jaker

New Member
Posts:16

9/1/2004 2:17 PM
Is it just me or is that review completely inaccurate, claiming that the B-sides cd is being pimped as "full album price"? It is €10 as I understand it, does anyone is this a mistake?

Binokular

Veteran Member
Posts:1665

9/1/2004 2:40 PM
Theres another discussion going on the board about this, you will find it at €9.99 in most stores now, because retailers being the canny folk that they are realise that its not going to shift that many units at full price. When it debuted on CDWOW and Amazon.com it was retailing at comparable prices to full price albums, though that may have changed since. Even at €9.99 it doesn't make much of a case for itself. For a start it doesn't include all his B-Sides, many of the tracks are just alternative versions of each other or of tracks that have already appeared on the album "O". This guy just isn't nearly prolific enough to justify putting together a B-Sides compilation. Take a look at his early discography and you'll see what I mean: http://www.irishmusiccentral.com/damienrice/discography_singles.html

Gar

Veteran Member
Posts:1676

9/1/2004 2:50 PM
I wrote that review and I included that line because when I bought the album it was €9.99 but in the next shop I went into it was €16.99. And believe it or not, I saw it just the other day in some music store for €24.99. The point of the whole thing is, like Binokular says, that Damien Rice (or his mangement team) has put out a cd which should not have been released (or at least done much much better) and certainly should not be selling as much as it is. Was the review not accurate?

El Duderino

Basic Member
Posts:179

9/1/2004 2:51 PM
I never realised he released so many CDs with just one tune on them. Pretty pointless really. I thought he was meant to be a hippy?! All that non biodegradeable plastic going to waste. What would mother nature think dodima?

Rev Jules

Veteran Member
Posts:1041

9/1/2004 2:56 PM
quote: Originally posted by Jaker Is it just me or is that review completely inaccurate, claiming that the B-sides cd is being pimped as "full album price"? It is €10 as I understand it, does anyone is this a mistake? I won't repeat what my fellow moderator has said about your comment concerning the price of this record but I will add that your claim that Gareth Maher's review was 'completely inaccurate' is in itself inaccurate. As far as I can see, Mr Maher has reviewed this release in an honest and detailed manner. He has done so after taking soundings on it from fellow readers of Cluas via the discussion boards and he makes very specific references to performer, instrumentation and audio quality in his text. He also does Lisa Hannigan a service by giving her due credit for the commercial success of 'O', credit which has not been forthcoming from Rice himself. By the way, Gar's overall review of the record is more generous than that of the Irish Times which described it as recycled songs wrapped up in a cd cover of recycled paper.

Gar

Veteran Member
Posts:1676

9/1/2004 3:17 PM
Cheers Jules. That's some great feedback from my review. I thought the review was accurate enough, maybe I'm biased though, but maybe I should've clarified the price range that the album is selling at more.

Mush

New Member
Posts:4

9/1/2004 9:51 PM
I have to say that I think this so called B-sides is a complete money spinner for the now money hungry rice! O has sold well over a million copies and lets not forget that Mr Rice gets every penny of it! One this album they're are 8 tracks.....4 of which are already on O!So basically we're only getting 4 newish songs...most of which have been around for years. Personally Lonelily is my favourite of the 4 tracks...even if Hannigan isnt featured on it.

Jaker

New Member
Posts:16

9/2/2004 8:21 AM
Cool, I just don't agree with the reviewer's opinion of the whole situation but then again everyone to their own "He has done so(reviewed this release in an honest and detailed manner) after taking soundings on it from fellow readers of Cluas via the discussion boards and he makes very specific references to performer, instrumentation and audio quality in his text" Technically a good review, covering all aspects, was sure though other people's influence shouldn't affect a single person's opinion on a record

jmc105

Basic Member
Posts:188

9/2/2004 2:40 PM
quote: Originally posted by Rev Jules As far as I can see, Mr Maher has reviewed this release in an honest and detailed manner... He also does Lisa Hannigan a service by giving her due credit for the commercial success of 'O', credit which has not been forthcoming from Rice himself... in the interests of detail and honesty, perhaps Mr. Maher might have pointed out that b-sides was originally compiled for a US release, as none of damien rice's singles were released there. as a result of demand from irish fans, the cd was given an irish release, thereby saving fans the added cost associated with buying imported cds. this may have influenced Mr. Maher somewhat as he pondered his own question: "Is this album a cheap attempt by Rice to exploit his newfound success? Or is it a genuine effort to give his fans something before his belated second album is released?" as for the service Mr. Maher does lisa hannigan, i would strongly question your sugggestion that damien rice has been reluctant to acknowledge lisa's importance to the success of 'o'. www.eskimofriends.com maintains an archive of interviews with damien rice that have appeared in various form all around the world. here are a few quotes: He is accompanied on his search, and on the album, by the tragic romantic voice of Lisa Hannigan, the mysterious muse credited by Rice for her "huge help" on the project. – neumu.net Q: The album is full of collaborated vocals between you and singer Lisa Hannigan, how did you end up working together and why did you chose to share vocal duties? A: We met by accident. Then again by accident. Got talking. found out we both sang, played, wrote. I had a number of songs I was looking for a female singer on.. So I just invited her and she was amazing. fuseFM interview the voice of Rice's best friend and musical companion, Lisa Hannigan, weaves prominently through the song (and most of the others) boston globe The musicians Rice used for the album are a cosmopolitan and esteemed group: pianist Jean Meunir of Paris, drummer TOMO of NYC, English cellist Vyvienne Long, Lisa Hannigan (who worked closely with Rice on every aspect of the project) neumu.net Rice threw whatever pleased his ear into O, including opera singers, Gregorian chants, and secret weapon, Lisa Hannigan, who shares vocal duties on the album and performs with him on tour. rolling stone i've never gotten the impression that lisa was being somehow ignored or trivialised at any of the damien rice gigs i've been to, and i seem to remember that lisa took over lead vocals for one of damien's dublin gigs. of course, the only person who could conclusively answer the question is lisa herself, and she seems to be too busy conquering the world with damien (and vivienne, shane and tomo, who must not be pretty enough to generate the same level of outraged support that lisa has) to be bothered complaining. or maybe there's nothing to complain about.

Rev Jules

Veteran Member
Posts:1041

9/2/2004 2:58 PM
quote: Originally posted by jmc105 Originally posted by Rev Jules As far as I can see, Mr Maher has reviewed this release in an honest and detailed manner... He also does Lisa Hannigan a service by giving her due credit for the commercial success of 'O', credit which has not been forthcoming from Rice himself... as for the service Mr. Maher does lisa hannigan, i would strongly question your sugggestion that damien rice has been reluctant to acknowledge lisa's importance to the success of 'o'. Thats a fair comment. I am not a browser of websites dedicated to or concerning Damien Rice. My interests lie elsewhere in country music and alt-country. I based my comment on interviews that I have read in a number of English and Irish broadsheet newspapers where I did not see quoted references by Mr Rice to Ms Hannigan, nor did I see photographs of her published in relation to that article. Prehaps it would be fairer to say then that whils't niche sites, such as the one you mention, are more expansive about their working relationship and her contribution, mainstream media has decided to concentrate on Mr Rice to the detriment of Ms Hannigan's profile.

Unicron

Veteran Member
Posts:1696

9/2/2004 4:41 PM
But Jules, some of those quotes came from Rolling Stone and the Boston Globe, hardly underground media. Damien, despite all the contributions that Lisa and (Vyvienne Long and Shane and Tomo) have added to his music, is a solo act with a backing band, it just so happens that members of that band have become extremely prominent over the course of time. Do you see Gemma Hayes talk about the contribution that Dave Odlam makes to her music. Is part of Damien's success down to Lisa? In my opinion yes. Would Damien have been successfull had he never met her? Perhaps not to the same degree but I think that he would have.

Rev Jules

Veteran Member
Posts:1041

9/2/2004 5:15 PM
quote: Originally posted by Rev Jules Originally posted by Unicron But Jules, some of those quotes came from Rolling Stone and the Boston Globe, hardly underground media. You didn't read my response. I specifically mentioned British and Irish newspapers. I made the comments that JMC105 was responding to prior to his posting the quotes you mentioned. I never used the word 'underground media'. I think Rolling Stone has lost its relevance in terms of what is happening in modern music. And I don't live in Boston. Didn't I already say that I was uninterested in this guy and his music ? Oh but no, I am thus one of the dammned who has not recognised the True Saviour. Jesus wept, listen to that stuff all you like, just please, don't bore me into the ground about it. By the way, there is one genius in the music industry who writes, performs, records, produces and has released his own music. His name is Prince, you should check him out some time.

Unicron

Veteran Member
Posts:1696

9/2/2004 6:14 PM
If anything I misread your response. You did specifically mention British and Irish newspapers in one sentence but in another you mention mainstream media without providing a qualifier so I think that it was reasonable to infer that you were talking about ALL the mainstream media and not just limiting it to these islands, especially when you had been provided with examples from furthur afar. I was responding to your comments in the post immediately above my own so thats what I based my response on i.e. A response to a post made when the quotes JMC provided were available to you (perhaps I'm mistaken, viewing the timestamps it's not unreasonable to think that you did take longer than 18 minutes to compose your response in which case you would have begun to write before you saw what JMC wrote). No, you never said underground media but you did say "mainstream". In my opinion not mainstream could be said to be underground. So if these non-underground (i.e. mainstream sources) give credit to Lisa then given my understanding of what the domain you were referring to (worldwide media as opposed to what you were actually referring to) then I think that it was reasonable to point out what I percieved to be a flaw in your argument. I can only go on what I read, not what you meant. Also I happen to agree with your opinion on RS but what we think of it as a publication is irrelevent to this argument. Prince eh? On a side-note Damien Rice actually really digs him.

Rev Jules

Veteran Member
Posts:1041

9/2/2004 6:50 PM
quote: Originally posted by Unicron If anything I misread your response....etc Hmm, to be fair here, the comment which I made which has been responded to, by both you and JMC105, was made on the 1st september. Both your response and JMC105's were not made until 2nd september. I saw no reason to adjust my original position in my subsequent reply of 2nd September, only to clarify my original statement. Neither of you has actually negated my original comment, only pointed out that other publications which I had not read, said otherwise. And I accept this. In regard to RS, I think it is fair to say that if I find RS irrelevant then it follows that I don't read it, don't much care what material it contains and don't regard it as worthy to be a source. What I do find intersting is that RS chose to describe Ms Hannigan as a 'secret weapon'. That word 'secret' hardly describes someone who is being deliberately pushed to the fore. That would be like saying that North Korea was openly developing Nuclear WMDS and has put an advert in New York Times to say as much. Your subsequent point about what constitutes mainstream, underground, worldwide and other media I think is very interesting. Especially when there is a US Music tour being held at the moment, that is led by Billy Bragg and Steve Earle, and which is protesting against the consolidation of US Media. If we can stay with the example of RS for a moment, if you consider, as I do, that RS is no longer relevant then should we then disregard their views on a range of issues ? Furthermore, RS is strictly speaking a niche interest magazine, which emerged from the 60s counterculture, but thanks to its history, quality of past writers and its large sales figures has become widely read outside its core group of readers. Conversely, newspapers are covering the kinds of music stories which were previously the preserve of niche music magazines and, by including free cds, have co-opted a marketing technique of mags like NME and Uncut. In some cases, as with The Guardian, their music writing is actually better than that of niche magazines. How do you accurately define these various kinds of media ?

jmc105

Basic Member
Posts:188

9/2/2004 7:55 PM
quote: Originally posted by Rev Jules Didn't I already say that I was uninterested in this guy and his music ? Oh but no, I am thus one of the dammned who has not recognised the True Saviour. Jesus wept, listen to that stuff all you like, just please, don't bore me into the ground about it. it's interesting that you feel comfortable accusing damien rice of being selfish and ungrateful from a position of, as you admit, relative ignorance. it's interesting that Mr. Maher felt comfortable questioning damien rice's ethics without going to the trouble of researching the background of the 'b-sides' cd. (if anyone's interested, check out the news section of rice's official site www.damienrice.com). i wonder would rev jules, Mr. Maher, Mr. Irish "the very sight of damien rice burns my eyes" Times or anyone else be as happy to make such accusations about, say, christy moore? i would suggest that you felt comfortable making those comments because of the undercurrent (more like an over-, under- and pretty much everywhere else too- current) of ill-will towards damien rice that has sprung up over the last couple of years - the guy is fair game these days, and plenty people are only too willing to believe that yes! damien rice is a money-grabbing hypocrite, sure, look at him and his "b-sides" ripping off all his 'scarily enthusiastic' fans. i always knew his hippy-dippy views on money were only a load of old bollix, sure doesn't his own mother call him breadhead? and don't talk to me about poor old lisa hannigan. does she ever get a mention? nah! sure he tells reporters that she's a secret! classified information! and where would he be without her, the ungrateful little hoor... jaysus! when good hippies go bad, hah?!! unfortunately a climate that excuses unfair accusations, that unquestioningly accepts faulty logic and inaccurate information will only ever lead to more misinformation, more negativity, more hatred, and on and on. it really is a shame, because i doubt very much damien rice is a bad person - in fact i have read plenty accounts of people who have met him who found him to be a really nice, down-to-earth guy. i guess it's just a question of what you choose to believe. begrudgery, anyone? out of curiosity, i'd like to know if you (rev jules) would still say that damien rice is not 'forthcoming' in giving lisa hannigan her due credit, or for that matter if you would see 'b-sides' as a calculated ripoff of irish fans?

Unicron

Veteran Member
Posts:1696

9/2/2004 8:19 PM
I'll quickly address the Damien Rice issue first to get it out of the way as your other points are miles more interesting then fighting about the merits of a particular musician, especially as I assume that we're both reasonable enough to realise that if someone holds a contrary opinion to you on such a trivial topic it's not worth arguing about, if I can go off on a tangent I always find it sad when someone talks it as a personal insult when someone voices a distaste for music that they like. Crass it may be but why should he go out of his way to credit Lisa? He is "the guy" and she's the hired help, someone with her obvious talents most likely has a successful solo career ahead of her (having seen her solo performance at the Bam benefit gig I can only describe it as amazing) and if or when she leaves Damien's band had he made statements along the lines of "she's so great, the album would have been crap without her" would certainly give the impression that he couldn't cut it without her. Did I say quickly address? Should we disregard the views of RS? Well that’s all down to personal preference, if you were to find yourself agreeing with much of what it says then obviously no, people will instinctively look for the support of others to validate their own opinions. But just because in the main we disagree with RS doesn’t mean that we should dismiss it out of hand, chances are once in a while they'll be right. If nothing else everyone's opinion is worth consideration regardless of whether or not we believe them to ultimately correct or not. Obviously that doesn't mean we have to read the publication just because it's there though, we've got lives (well, you might have one). What constitutes mainstream, underground, worldwide or otherwise? In the case of the first two it's almost impossible to quantify as you have to apply an arbitrary readership figure to determine which is which (for sake of argument lets say it's a binary phenomenon and there is no grey area between the two, something is either underground or mainstream). In the case of worldwide I would argue that anything that has a web presence where content is readily available and the site doesn't merely serve as an ad for the "real world" outlet as worldwide, for example, the NME is worldwide but Q magazine is not. Could it be said that newspapers are just a collection of niche publications bundled together? I bought today’s Irish Times and it had a separate property supplement, I'm not in the market for a house so I threw it away, it's a niche that I'm not interested in and it came in a separate section that I could easily dispose of. If I buy it tomorrow it will come with the Ticket which I'd probably read part of, on Saturday something else etc. Perhaps it's just me but I don't read music content to see if it's "well written" or not, I just want to know if there is something out there that I might be missing, provided that the writer gets their point across then I'm satisfied, having said that any truly brilliant piece of writing no matter what the subject is is a joy to read, I write a weekly column on another site, it's title: "Dancing about architecture". Case in point I saw a documentary on Con Houllihan on TV this week where interviewees were saying that even people who had no interest in sport regularly used to buy the evening press for his columns.

Rev Jules

Veteran Member
Posts:1041

9/2/2004 11:06 PM
quote: Originally posted by Unicron Should we disregard the views of RS?... The above is shorthand for your posting which is so full of ideas and questions that I just wanted to acknowledge the full text. Now... 1) You raise the point of RS's authorial style. Is it a magazine with an official voice or are we really reacting to the views of certain writers ? 2) Yes, web is worldwide (whey hey Cluas.com). Mainstream and underground, the difference is not only sales figures but also, I feel, the depth of knowledge of the reader (see point 3) and the take up by other media organisations on content. For example, where ABC media outlet quotes XYZ media outlet, as in Reuters being constantly quoted by broadsheets such as Irish Indo. In that case Reuters has become an 'authority' outlet on a subject. 3) I don't think that newspapers are a collection of niche publications because they don't specialise enough. For example, last week The Ticket did a 'who the hell is' piece about an american country singer called Gretchen Wilson. I have known about Gretchen and, in fact, have had her album since May because I regularly read CMT.com. That is a true niche outlet since it is based in Nashville and is first to press with news concerning country music. So, I think the national newspapers are mainstream in that their audience is the fabled person in the street and not the specialist. 4) I personally enjoy good writing since, as you point out, good writing can make you read about a topic with avid interest that you would otherwise not give a toss for. Those are my thoughts to start.

Rev Jules

Veteran Member
Posts:1041

9/3/2004 11:17 AM
quote: Originally posted by jmc105 i wonder would rev jules, Mr. Maher, Mr. Irish "the very sight of damien rice burns my eyes" Times or anyone else be as happy to make such accusations about, say, christy moore?... ...i would suggest that you felt comfortable making those comments because of the undercurrent (more like an over-, under- and pretty much everywhere else too- current) of ill-will towards damien rice that has sprung up over the last couple of years... ...it really is a shame, because i doubt very much damien rice is a bad person - in fact i have read plenty accounts of people who have met him who found him to be a really nice, down-to-earth guy. i guess it's just a question of what you choose to believe... out of curiosity, i'd like to know if you (rev jules) would still say that damien rice is not 'forthcoming' in giving lisa hannigan her due credit, or for that matter if you would see 'b-sides' as a calculated ripoff of irish fans?... While it is unfair to bring what a person in one thread writes into another thread I do notice that you seem to be having the same argument on two different threads. I have also noticed that this discussion has suddenly gotten ill tempered, and while I am not directing that at anyone, I am going to say the following and let it be. 1) I am not sure what Christy Moore has to do with any of this. If you want to start a discussion thread on his music feel free to do so but none of the people you referred to above even mentioned him. 2) In regards to your comment that I felt, "comfortable making those comments because of the undercurrent...", that is a personal comment on me, portraying me in a cowardly light. It is ill willed, ill tempered, unfair and I don't accept it. I am extremely comfortable expressing my opinions, as regulars of Cluas would know, regardless of any 'cimate' around me, especially an 'undercurrent' I was entirely unaware of. 3) You probably shouldn't attack another person's opinion on the basis that they have never met the object of their attack when you yourself have never met the object of their attack either or, in fact, have met anyone who actually knows that person too. 4) You can read what I said about the 'B-Sides' on the relevant thread. I was even handed about it, giving both a for and against point of view. 5) I never said that Damien Rice was either 'selfish' or 'ungrateful'. Those are solely your own words. Of the five quotes you used to bolster your own argument, only one quotes Rice directly, the rest are comments by a variety of journalists. So no, I am not going to alter my original position because I don't see how it has effectively been negated by you. To repeat, from the sources I had read, no mention was made by Rice of Lisa Hannigan. Unicron has sensibly suggested that, at the end of the day, she is just part of the backing band and why should he mention her anyway. That is a fair point. As far as I am aware, Michael Jackson didn't go around eulogising about Sheryl Crow when she was in his backing band. Prehaps its time that Lisa went out on her own. 6) Damien Rice is a professional musician who makes his soley living by his music. To that end, he operates an online shop within his website which, among other things, sells no less than 25 different types of t-shirt. In that light, I would consider that he takes a financially advantageous position towards his fans in that, by supporting his music, he has calculated that they will also purchase his merchandise. This is absolutely acceptable within the music industry, every act does it, and thus I don't see the harm in raising the question of value for money in a review of a product which is being offered for sale as opposed to being given away free through a fan club. Finally, I want to say that a person's taste in music is personal to them. People have the right to express their tastes. If that offends other people, who have different tastes, then so be it, but that doesn't affect the validity of discussing music along the lines of personal taste. And a discussion of music should allow for comments on not just the music itself but the artists image, the way they put themselves forward through the media and the way that they relate to their core audience. These are valid areas of discussion and if we cant talk about them on a music website then I don't see where we can discuss them.

Unicron

Veteran Member
Posts:1696

9/3/2004 12:10 PM
quote: Originally posted by Rev Jules quote: Originally posted by Unicron Should we disregard the views of RS?... The above is shorthand for your posting which is so full of ideas and questions that I just wanted to acknowledge the full text. Same applies to you. 1. I find that music publications tend to speak with one voice, I think that it may come from the fact that they try to maintain a singular opinion on the type of music they cover, for example an indie rock publication is unlikely to publish reviews by a fan of S-Club juniors and this tends to extend to their non-music writing as well, moving away from Rolling Stone and onto Hot Press for an example, their social/political coverage tends to come from a certain trendy ultra liberal outlook (which in part I happen to agree with but that's irrelevent) without offering a more conservative voice an outlet to provide a contrary opinion, part of the reason that I stopped reading HP was my frustration with being preached to, I'm inteligent enough to be able to take in ideas that don't mesh with my own. 2. I agree with your extended definition of mainstream to include the "authoritative voice". 3. Here we're getting into niche's of niche's of niche's surely, take Franz Ferdinand's success which can be partly attributed to the NME telling it's readership what to like, as a specialist music magazine you could describe the NME as a (widely read) niche publication, however surely there was some even more niche-like Scotttish fanzine that picked up on Franz Ferdinand before the NME did. Is the NME mainstream media in relation to fanzines but a niche publication in relation to The Guardian? 3a. I would argue everyone is to some extent the person in the street but with divergent interests and different inclinations to access more specific media. For example 3 of my own favourite recent musical discoveries are Sufjan Stevens, Wrens, and the Shins, all of which were highly touted by pitchforkmedia.com which has found itself in the position of being the authoritative voice on US indie rock. It's a site I visit from time to time and through it I was aware of Stevens and the Shins a good 4-5 months before the music suppliments started to give them any coverage. Just because I'm aware of these bands ahead of the majority of people who might be interested in them due to my web-surfing habits doesn't mean that any eventual coverage that they get is any less relevent, in fact you could argue from a musicians livelyhood point of view it is more important for them to be covered by a newspaper then by pitchfork/cmt/cluas.

jmc105

Basic Member
Posts:188

9/3/2004 7:45 PM
quote: Originally posted by Rev Jules While it is unfair to bring what a person in one thread writes into another thread I do notice that you seem to be having the same argument on two different threads. I have also noticed that this discussion has suddenly gotten ill tempered, and while I am not directing that at anyone, I am going to say the following and let it be. 1) I am not sure what Christy Moore has to do with any of this. If you want to start a discussion thread on his music feel free to do so but none of the people you referred to above even mentioned him. 2) In regards to your comment that I felt, "comfortable making those comments because of the undercurrent...", that is a personal comment on me, portraying me in a cowardly light. It is ill willed, ill tempered, unfair and I don't accept it. I am extremely comfortable expressing my opinions, as regulars of Cluas would know, regardless of any 'cimate' around me, especially an 'undercurrent' I was entirely unaware of. 3) You probably shouldn't attack another person's opinion on the basis that they have never met the object of their attack when you yourself have never met the object of their attack either or, in fact, have met anyone who actually knows that person too. 4) You can read what I said about the 'B-Sides' on the relevant thread. I was even handed about it, giving both a for and against point of view. 5) I never said that Damien Rice was either 'selfish' or 'ungrateful'. Those are solely your own words. Of the five quotes you used to bolster your own argument, only one quotes Rice directly, the rest are comments by a variety of journalists. So no, I am not going to alter my original position because I don't see how it has effectively been negated by you. To repeat, from the sources I had read, no mention was made by Rice of Lisa Hannigan. Unicron has sensibly suggested that, at the end of the day, she is just part of the backing band and why should he mention her anyway. That is a fair point. As far as I am aware, Michael Jackson didn't go around eulogising about Sheryl Crow when she was in his backing band. Prehaps its time that Lisa went out on her own. 6) Damien Rice is a professional musician who makes his soley living by his music. To that end, he operates an online shop within his website which, among other things, sells no less than 25 different types of t-shirt. In that light, I would consider that he takes a financially advantageous position towards his fans in that, by supporting his music, he has calculated that they will also purchase his merchandise. This is absolutely acceptable within the music industry, every act does it, and thus I don't see the harm in raising the question of value for money in a review of a product which is being offered for sale as opposed to being given away free through a fan club. Finally, I want to say that a person's taste in music is personal to them. People have the right to express their tastes. If that offends other people, who have different tastes, then so be it, but that doesn't affect the validity of discussing music along the lines of personal taste. And a discussion of music should allow for comments on not just the music itself but the artists image, the way they put themselves forward through the media and the way that they relate to their core audience. These are valid areas of discussion and if we cant talk about them on a music website then I don't see where we can discuss them. why is it unfair to bring what a person said in one thread into another? 1. i was trying to make the point that, while you say you don't know too much about damien rice, you were happy to say that he was not giving lisa hannigan due credit. would you be willing make a similar claim about someone who hasn't attracted such negativity (someone like, say christy moore)? put another way, i was suggesting that it's easier to make accusations about someone who has been getting bashed regularly anyway. the comment you made, about due credit, is one i've come across numerous times on messageboards. that's part of the undercurrent i was referring to, and that's what i meant about not hesitating to criticise him despite not having much first-hand evidence to support it. 2. i never intended to insult you in any way. if it seemed like that's what i was doing, i apologise. your posts, from what i've seen, are always well thought out and well expressed. i do think you jumped the gun, as they say, with the whole due credit thing because while damien has never once said lisa is "just" a backing singer (or whatever), he has often said (both in the media, at gigs and on the sleeve for 'o') how big a role she played in 'o' and still does in gigs - agree to differ, i guess. 3. regardless of who has or hasn't met anyone (!) i would still say that it can be dangerous to make up your mind about someone based on journalists or what 'someone in the industry' said. as it happens i did meet damien rice once, briefly, just after a soundcheck for a gig in the states. he took the time to say hello and seemed like a normal (if stressed following 24 hours travel) and decent guy. 4. the only problem i had with the comments on b-sides was that i felt the question of motive on rice's part (ripoff etc) should, in the interests of fairness, have included the background of the cd. if b-sides had been compiled purely for an irish release it would be a different story entirely, because at issue is the motivation behind the release, not the release itself. it was not originally intended for an irish release - that only came about due to demand. 5. surely you must agree that when you accuse someone of not giving credit where credit is due, you are accusing them of selfish, ungrateful behaviour? as for the interview quotes being direct or otherwise, i think it's fair to presume that the journalists in question formed their ideas about lisa from their discussions with damien. except for transcripts, interviews never include everything said by an interviewee. 6. yes, value for money is always important. b-sides was criticised as being essentially unnecessary for the irish market. i feel that the history of the cd answers that criticism. discussion is great. personal taste is great. and i have no problem with someone tearing strips of a musician, so long as they are doing fairly, from an informed position. i don't think i have the right to tell anyone what they can or can't say, but i do have the right to tell them what i think about what they said. i don't want to come across as a beligerent troublemaker (too late!) - basically i've read a whole load of negative stuff about damien rice over the last while and this is the first time i've actually responded so... maybe it's been good for me to get it off my chest!

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